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  Xenctuary | June 05, 2008

  quote Article source
  

  The game requires an eight minute install, as well as a number of two to three-minute installs between acts.

  I hate mandatory installations. Either make them optional or give us UK gamers more than 40GB Sony! I don't want to have to pick and choose which install files to keep and then be sat waiting once more when I later decide to play one of those games. And why have multiple installs? You might as well have multiple discs!
  
  
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    Krunal | June 05, 2008
    I'm extremely, and I mean extremely annoyed at the fact that there are two-to-three minute installs in between acts which basically means 2-3 minutes LOADING SCREENS. I wonder if once you've played the game, the second time will be quicker, or if somehow it'll overwrite the previous acts download *-) I wonder how many GB it'll use up of the harddrive.... 8mins is roughly 5gigs, and if you have say 5 acts, thats another 5gigs...
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      bigcheda | June 05, 2008
      between acts? so the game has like 2-3 loading screens and thats it? Would you like loading screens every time you enter a new room instead?
      
      I dont like mandatory installs but it is what it is. Its not that bad and people tend to exaggerate their annoyances with it.
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        iLLmatic | June 05, 2008
        I wish I could give you 5 thumbs up. Its either this or deal with loading and pop up that would make everyone cry the PS3 sucks altogether. It was one thing dealing with the complaining early on when people didn't understand what installs are for, but at this point, some people are just refusing to educate themselves on the benefits or at the very least, the justification for installation. People somehow think that devs are just being lazy.
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    Armed Rebel | June 06, 2008
    Wouldn't be ironic if it's gets to the point where you can only fit 5 or 4 games's installs and for any other games you want to play you have to install them each time, so it's even more loading plus the hassle.
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      Xenctuary | June 08, 2008
      That's exactly what I was worried about. Damn irony.
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  Fatal Error | June 05, 2008
  this doesn't bother me as far as space is concerned (I have another 25GB left on my harddrive) but it does seem a bit weird that there's installations for the different acts.
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  iLLmatic | June 05, 2008
  I find it interesting that Payton said reviewers are not to speak about "what happens" during later install sequences. What could that mean? Something interactive?
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  Red 9 | June 05, 2008
  8 minute install? And more than one? Jeesh, ridiculous.
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  Gothic Girl | June 06, 2008
  Geez. No wonder Konami didn't want people talking about install time. An 8 minute install isn't so bad, but multiple installs in teh game too? ugh.
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    Red 9 | June 06, 2008
    My bloody HDD will be full of MGS4 mandatory installs before I'm even done the game...
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  Mnmfan | June 06, 2008
  So much for Bluray and its massive space then. Only 2 years into the PS3s life and already we are forced to install everytime the game load.
  360 fanboys are going to be using this as a PS3 negative for a long time.
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    Final Blade | June 06, 2008
    <sub>Mnmfan Blu-ray has nothing to do why the install are mandatory.
    
    Its beneficial and to be honest I rather have an install then have pop in and loading times. If the PS3 didn't have the installs PS3 fans will cry more saying the PS3 sucks and etc.
    
    Actually they can't use it as a negative since its not a negative only to users blowing it out of proportion.</sub>
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      Existenz | June 06, 2008
      They will still cry the PS3 sucks and Xbox 360 fans will be laughing while applauding Microsoft for making a seemingly better machine, It is all to do with Blu-Ray it is a format that has shown tiome and time again it cannot make use of its capacity, a 50Gb game like this will require this level of installing, Blu-Ray is too slow, anything over 9Gb requires an install on the PS3 these days, sometimes the game requires an install when it is small like GTA IV which was 6.6Gb, that install was to make sure the PS3 could run the game well but even that wasn't fool proof...
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    Xenctuary | June 08, 2008

    quote Mnmfan
    

    360 fanboys are going to be using this as a PS3 negative for a long time.

    "Fanboys"? Don't you mean children with parents who refuse to buy them a PlayStation 3?
    
    
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  Mnmfan | June 06, 2008
  Yes I know that installing is to improve loading and stuff but surely that should mean we'd only need to install once not at every chapter. Kojima already said a while ago that MGS4 was maxing out the Blurays space.
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    Final Blade | June 06, 2008
    <sub>So when was the last 50GB game you played? Cause in all honesty things like this is needed for that massive of a game.
    
    Surely you understand this?</sub>
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      Existenz | June 06, 2008
      If this comes with a 50Gb game it is obvious Blu-Ray was the bad choice, it is an awesome movie format but in its young age, it is showing how slow it is, it can barely handle games over 9Gb without excessive load times and an install... Motorstorm is a prime example i put that down to the PS3 being new and unoptimised code but now it is all clear, Blu-Ray is hampering games and meaning gamers have to chew on some considerable installs and they barely do anything, as On Vacation state below, the 360 doesn't need installs on any game and they run just as well if not better, why? Because DVD is faster for the amount it can store, Blu-Ray is slow in comparison.
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        Final Blade | June 07, 2008
        _{Funny this is though, if the 360 had a harddrive standard They too would be installed like the PS3. It has nothing to do with blu-ray.}
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        Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
        Actually it does. The Xbox 360 DVD drive has a read speed of 12x whereas the PS3's blu ray drive has a speed of only 2x. So really the 360 wouldn't profit from installs nearly as much as the PS3 as the load times for the 360 would be much faster than the PS3 without either installing. So perhaps not.
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        Fatal Error | June 07, 2008
        Well you do realize that the PS3's "2x read speed" isn't the same as a standard 2x read speed, right? I think that in side by side comparisons it's really almost equal, maybe being equivalent of 10x DVD speeds at the lowest.
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  On Vacation | June 06, 2008
  As far as i'm aware, The 360 version of GTA4 doesn't need an Install and it has minimal more loading time then the PS3 version which does.
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    Xenctuary | June 08, 2008
    The initial loading screen in Grand Theft Auto IV for the Xbox 360 seems quicker to me. You only see three of the concept artworks, whereas there's a whole bunch of them on the PlayStation 3 plus a blank screen for a few seconds after the Rockstar Games logo.
    
    In game loads for missions and the like are marginally quicker on the PlayStation 3.
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  iLLmatic | June 06, 2008
  The Blu-Ray DRIVE in the PS3 is only 2x, which I believe is 72Mb/s. You can't just say oh Blu-Ray is slow and it was a bad choice. We're talking about installation files. If you really are that impatient, then I guess you are going to have a complaint, but installation do not make a game worse. The advantages a developer has with Blu-Ray far outweigh any installation periods, and just as Blu-Ray is young, so is the PS3. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see the programmers find more effective ways to deal with this "issue." And for those losing sleep over available space, get a bigger hard disk. Nobody should own a $500 gaming system and not be able to get a dirt cheap HD. "Oh oh oh but I shouldn't have to buy an extra drive!" Well I shouldn't have to pay $4 for a gallon of gas but guess what? I do it every few days because those are the circumstances of reality. [/rant]
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    Armed Rebel | June 06, 2008
    What a ridiculously stupid analogy.
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  iLLmatic | June 06, 2008
  Why? Because you didn't understand it or because you don't agree with it?
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    Red 9 | June 06, 2008
    We're just saying Blu-Ray is beginning to reveal its flaws. 5 mandatory installs or more throughout a game is a bloody stupid move. I just don't get it. I don't care what 'benefits' there are, mandatory installs is a flaw. I don't care how good the game looks, if I'm getting 3 minute load times, it's a flaw.
    
    Remember the vid parodying MGS4 on 360 and the 'insert disc' screen? Yeah, I guess that video is truer to PS3 load times.
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      Final Blade | June 07, 2008
      _{Actually you can make the same case for the 360. If 360 had a Harddrive standard the games too would be installed for better gaming. Its the curse of next gen gaming.}
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      iLLmatic | June 07, 2008
      What I said is that you cannot say Blu-Ray is showing its flaws when much of this has to do with the architecture of the PS3.
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        Red 9 | June 07, 2008
        Hypothetically speaking, MGS4 could've been created perfectly fine without the mandatory installs. What puzzles me is why there's such an abundance in this game.
        
        Maybe there's some ingeneous way they're planning on covering the load times.
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    Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
    Because no one has a choice but to buy gas unless they want to walk (ie there is no competition in gas), however Sony is in the business of pleasing customers in a world of entertainment and thus competition. Losing valuable space due do mandatory installs != high cost of gas. With your analogy you could validate something like "who cares if you think you shouldn't have to ride on a stationary bike for 20 minutes to watch you panasonic HDTV, that's the reality in which we live in". The REAL reality is that you DON'T have to install console games to the HDD at all, it's just what Sony CHOSE to do. If it was a MUST in the way paying $4 a gallon for gas is a MUST, then we'd have been installing games on the would-be hard drive since atari.
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      iLLmatic | June 07, 2008
      I don't have to drive, I choose to. I do not like paying high prices for gas, but because I choose to drive, I have no choice but to pay the asking price for gas. Alternatively, you don't have to play a game with a mandatory install that lessens the space left on your hard drive, but because you want to play the game, you have no choice but to deal with the amount of space "taken away" from you before you can play. That was my point. Of course the game code would still run without an installation, but the experience for the user would be affected. That is what many people don't want to understand. So, because of the way the PS3 is built, you can say that mandatory installs are actually necessary. Its not as if Sony is using these installations as a +1 against the 360. Its not something to brag about, but it must be done, period.
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        Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
        Driving v Walking isn't the same as Play a game v not playing a game. Are you going to walk 10+ miles to work every day? No. That's a completely unrealistic notion. Not playing a game is just...not playing a game. For all intents and purposes, you HAVE to pay for gas. You don't HAVE to install games for them to run. Proof: any console that isn't the PS3. Find me a car that doesn't require some sort of fuel. Case and point, sorry. End.
        
        And saying that installs are actually technically necessary is hysterical. The games would run fine, but due to a shortcoming of blu-ray, they're just needed to stop what would be long loading times.
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        Red 9 | June 07, 2008
        No it doesn't need to be done. Maybe Sony should have considered the implications of using a Blu-Ray drive for a game reader, because as we can see here, if we want a game of considerable quality, we have to install multiple things just so the game won't become a slideshow.
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  iLLmatic | June 07, 2008
  Hypothetically speaking because you don't have the programming knowledge or hypothetically speaking because you want to argue the whole install issue of PS3 games?
  
  And yes, there is something that hides the install periods, but we don't know what it is. Its one of the things reviewers were not to speak about.
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    Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
    Hypothetically because it's not the reality, yet could be.
    
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypothetic
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  Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
  lol @ whoever just thumbed down all my comments. Too much TRUTH to handle?
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  iLLmatic | June 07, 2008
  Some people do walk 10 miles to work. Some people take the bus. I choose not to drive my car into NYC because of the traffic, so I ride the bus and the train. If I did, however, I would have to pay for gas, period. A car is a luxury. So is that game you want on the shelf. Installs aren't needed, only PS3 games? Yea, thats what we're discussing. The games would run without the install, but because of the Blu-Ray drive/PS3/whatever, they are needed? Yea, thats what I've been saying the entire time. wtf are you arguing just to argue? You agreed with my whole explanation. The games would run worse without the data dumping, therefore they chose mandatory installs. What is there to argue? You think XBOX wouldn't install games if the hard drive was standard? Be serious. Its not about shortcomings, its about efficiency.
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    Armed Rebel | June 07, 2008
    You made a stupid analogy defending a stupid practice on the PS3. You said "having" to install games on the PS3 is the same as having to pay $4 a gallon for gas. You HAVE to pay for gas if you want to drive, whereas you don't technically need to install games to play games (are you seeing the symmetry?), it's just a DECISION made by Sony/PS3 Game Developers. This is my point. And as this is obviously above your head and I'm beginning to just repeat myself, that's all I'm going to say. If you're having trouble, re-read what I've said a bit slower and try to comprehend.
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      iLLmatic | June 07, 2008
      What is it with people who have to attempt to talk down to someone just because they are at odds on a topic? You feel like the big man now? Does talking shit make you feel like you've "won?" You're still saying the same thing.
      
      

      quote

      You HAVE to pay for gas if you want to drive

      If you want to drive. That is what I keep saying. The act of driving is an option, as playing a game is an option, but if you want to play this game, then you have to install it, its a fact. It doesn't matter whether you think its necessary or not, it has to be done. That is my whole point. Yea, game devs could have chosen not to have mandatory installs, but the game would not run as smoothly, it is a fact. Let me ask you, if you think the game on PS3 taht require an install would run the same without it, what would be the reason for doing so?
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      Final Blade | June 08, 2008
      <sub>AR your the one not getting the point. Fact is gaming is optional same as driving a Car. If your going to drive your going to NEED GAS TO RUN IT PROPERLY. If your going to play games YOUR GOING TO HAVE TO INSTALL IT TO PLAY IT PROPERLY.
      
      Yes the installs are annoying but there is reasons why it NEEDS to be done. Until they find a more efficient way of dealing with the games, your stuck to installing. ITS FACT.
      
      You guys have several options stop bitching and get a damn external harddrive and install the games. Or don't play games. End of story.
      
      His analogy is perfect you just don't want to accept his analogy as fact which it is. NO one is forcing you to install or buy the games. Also I have a question to both Red and AR have you play uncompressed games before? Do you know how things are done with uncompressed gaming?</sub>
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        Armed Rebel | June 08, 2008
        "If your going to play games YOUR GOING TO HAVE TO INSTALL IT TO PLAY IT PROPERLY. "
        
        This news has eluded me as I've been playing my 360 for years without installing. And my PS2. And my N64. And my gameboy. And my Super Nintendo. Hmm, where was I this past decade.
        
        However I've yet to come across a car that doesn't require a fuel of some sort.
        
        
        Do you see what I'm saying? Probably not. Don't want to pay $4 a gallon but still drive a car? Not possible (please, don't nit pick that statement with irrelevant fuel types that aren't in use). Want to play games without installing? Possible! It's called a 360/wii/any console not named PS3
        
        It's just a stupid, illogical analogy (which is a pet peeve of mine). Sure I understand what he's attempting to say, but the comparison just doesn't work.
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        iLLmatic | June 08, 2008
        For whatever reason, he doesn't seem to want to pick up on the fact that I've been saying the games ON A PS3 require an installation. For some oddball reason, after all of my explanations, he seems to think that I have been saying that all videogames in the history of life require an installation, which would not only be incorrect, it would be an asinine assumption. We've been talking about PS3 and PS3 only during this entire page, but for his own reasons, he doesn't want to actually understand what I have been saying, so don't bother.
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  Final Blade | June 08, 2008
  _{The point is Driving is optional so is playing games. The reason 360 has no installations is the reason for its design and no harddrive standard.}
  
  
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    Xenctuary | June 08, 2008
    I'm sure even with a standard hard drive there wouldn't be any mandatory installations. After all, the original Xbox had a hard drive.
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      Final Blade | June 09, 2008
      _{Again it comes from design as well. If you don't know Itsuno and the other DMC4 devs wanted to make a mandatory install for the 360 version as well, since i know about this, MS said "No, it will not be good for Core users who doesn't HAVE A HARDDRIVE". From this you'll gather that if 360 had a harddrive standard it too will need installs. Trust me if one dev thought about using it for 360 than others have but gotten the same reply back.}
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        Xenctuary | June 09, 2008
        The problem here is that the Xbox 360 release of Devil May Cry 4 ended up nearly identical to the PlayStation 3 version anyway. That is unless you count half second load time benefits from the twenty minute mandatory install.
        
        I understand the issue with the Core and Arcade systems, but it's irrelevant in this context. It is nonsensical to claim that a standard Xbox 360 hard drive would result in games requiring installs. The fact is that developers have managed to get Xbox 360 titles to run just as fine without forcing an install process upon the user.
        
        While the Xbox 360 lacks in many areas (such as not featuring the colossal capacity of Blu-Ray media and having a high console failure rate), it more than redeems itself by dodging issues like this and by having a parent company that stays consistent.
        
        Sony needs to stop this mandatory install business. It's ridiculous.
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        Final Blade | June 09, 2008
        <sub>How is it nonsensical? And isn't most multiplatform games nowadays identical? GTA4 was, but im sure R* and T2 would have made an mandatory install.
        
        The problem is Xenc it isn't Sony fault its the Devs, Sony has no control whether they make a mandatory install its the ones working on the game. Same thing with In game XMB, its the devs choice for adding it into the game. Claiming its Sony fault is nonsensical in it self.</sub>
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        Xenctuary | June 09, 2008
        I still don't understand your logic Final Blade. PlayStation 3 games which require installs run near identically to their respective Xbox 360 counterparts. If Xbox 360 hard drives were standard, why would there suddenly be mandatory installs? Why would developers change tact when what they are doing now is working perfectly? If it's a case of laziness, as you suggest, then Sony shouldn't allow it! They have a lot more control than you are led to believe. I'm not an expert on the situation, but there must be some other reason. It's been proposed in above comments that it's linked to Blu-Ray read speeds.
        
        In regards to the in-game XMB, perhaps Sony should have taken cue from Microsoft and their Xbox Guide. This is a system layer that sits below games and is active at all times. This way the Xbox Guide is inherent and not something that lies in the hands of the developer.
        
        The PlayStation 3 has so much potential. It's just down to Sony to rectify their mistakes.
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        Fatal Error | June 10, 2008
        The issue I see is that this isn't on the PS3 or sony, but on the developers of these games that are simply wasting everyone's time with the installs. The Blu-Ray drive is capable of handling these games without issues in loading times, but developers are just abusing the pre-installed HDD on all PS3 systems.
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  iLLmatic | June 09, 2008
  Xenctuary, thats the whole point of updating the firmware with in game XMB, so it isn't in the hands on the devs, but essentially runs parallel to the game software. Is that what you're alluding to?
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    Xenctuary | June 11, 2008
    Yep, it's nice to finally see it on the horizon. It took some time, but that's irrelevant now. Hopefully it's retroactive too.
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  Final Blade | June 10, 2008
  <sub>I never once alluding to Sony or devs being lazy, the fact is the architect of the PS3 requires the installs as well as the BD player speed time. Xenc the fact is without the installs there will be more pop in and loading times, do you want that for games especially as you claim their near identical?
  
  I wouldn't thats for sure. Also If Itsuno and the devs asked for a mandatory install for the 360 but them telling them no so it doesn't alienate the core users, what makes you so sure that the other devs haven't thought the same and asked them only for MS saying no to them?
  
  That seems very logical to me that many have wanted to have the installs for the 360 but can't due to the core users not having a harddrive standard. Its not really irrelevant since im making the case that the 360 would in fact have an install if one group wanted to have a mandatory install but couldn't to due to one of the 360 limitation of not having a harddrive standard.</sub>
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    Xenctuary | June 11, 2008
    But if everything works fine as it is now, then there would be no need for an installation. How is that so hard to comprehend?
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  Jesus | June 16, 2008
  The length of the cutscenes and stuff really have deterred me from buying this game. I don't think I will get it. I will go play my Commodore 64 instead.
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    Xenctuary | June 17, 2008
    The cutscenes are actually really well blended into the gameplay. At least the story doesn't lack!