You're missing the point. It's not simply the upgrade system, it's the stats, and no an rpg doesn't need more than just stats to be an rpg, just like an FPS doesn't need more than a first person view and a gun. I know there's more to D&D, but that aspect of D&D is what makes it an rpg. Whatever you do around it is what makes it a different kind of rpg. A game can have rpg elements like infamous, but they're light in nature, which is why it's NOT an rpg.

And here they're light in nature too. Heavier than a game like InFamous, sure, but still light enough that it isn't necessarily defined as a straight, undeniable RPG.

Like I said, the point of an RPG are the Role-Playing aspects. You've said an FPS doesn't need more than first person view and shooting. Well a Role-Playing game doesn't *need* more than you actually playing and defining the roles, which you don't do in this game. Unless of course there's a more hypocritical double standard in there?

The genre is called, Role Playing Game, but that's in name only and does NOT define what the genre actually entails because EVERY game has you playing some form of a role. In Halo your playing the role of master cheif, so obviously, saying that this is what makes an rpg is ridiculous. Also what do you mean you're not playing and defining a role in FFXIII? You're playing the role of the characters in the game and you're defining them by playing as them and furthering the story, and guess what, any game with any semblence of a plot does this, so you can't have these standards to make an rpg! It makes no sense.

Also, you have core stats of a D&D game, HP, Strength, Defence, etc., these are considered heavy elements as they play a key role in defining how powerful your character is and have a huge impact on how you play the game. THIS is what makes an rpg, nothing more nothing less. Anything else simply makes it a differnt kind of rpg, action rpg, strategy rpg, etc.

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Well a Role-Playing game doesn't *need* more than you actually playing and defining the roles

Overlook a little did we?

Defining means you decide what they do, who they are and why they do it. In Oblivion you can go on a rampage and murder non-essentials because you're an ass hole or you can go around hunting and gathering special items because you're a collector; you can be a noble and valiant knight or a dark mage and anything in between. You decide what your character is, D&D style.

In FF13 you do what is set out when it's set out. You watch cut-scenes about characters you have absolutely no part in defining and you're told what happens from start to finish. It's like Bioshock. You're not in control of those characters, you're just going from A to B because Atlas keeps saying 'Would you kindly'. That is not an RPG. Doesn't mean it can't be good, but it isn't an RPG.

And stats thing is balls and you know it. By those rules EVERY game is an RPG. You find and use different weapons in GoW, which have different core stats to others; so just because you aren't told them directly it's not the same thing? Every game uses stats to define almost everything, they just aren't thrown in your face. That doesn't make them RPGs, that just makes them games. And deciding stats doesn't make it an RPG either, otherwise you could call something like CoD an RPG because you can change guns.

Well clearly you and I have a different opinion of what defining means in a game. To me it means to explore a character with him/her on their journey, not you making decision for them. Making decisions for your character doesn't make it an rpg because there are games that have you making decisions that are NOT rpgs. For example, if a point and click adventure game had branching paths, and different choices for the character to make, that doesn't make it an rpg. Also, how is it any different for me to decide to give such and such character equipment, then to decide for him or her to be an asshole? Both are decisions that in some form define the character. One defines the character in terms of personality, the other in terms of gameplay, but both are decisions. I don't believe that decisions alone makes a game an rpg.

The fact that these stats ARE known to you, and you have an affect on them DOES make a difference. Yes I know alot of games have stats that are not know to you, but more often than not, you have no say in the matter concerning these stats other than a possible upgrade like in DMC, or Ninja Gaiden, you can upgrade your health, but not by repeating a process like grinding, thus that's does not make it an rpg. If you're able to take a mechanic and repeat a process in order to decrease the difficulty of the game using the D&D stats, or stats that have an equal or similiar effect, THAT is an rpg. That's why Rogue Galaxy is an action rpg, that's why Disgaea is a tactical rpg, you're basically saying none of these games are rpgs because they don't conform to YOUR personal definition of an rpg rather than what it actually is. Not to mention you tried comparing leveling up your character to upgrading your weapons, which doesn't make an rpg because while the weapons do have stats and can be upgraded, the whole point of D&D is to upgrade your character, and not focus on your weapons. The fact that you CAN see your stats, and have an affect on them makes the game an rpg. Having an upgrade system gives the game rpg elements, but because of how light they are, the games can't be considered rpgs, that's why DMC, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, are not rpgs and neither does simply having decisions makes an rpg.

Whether or not Vanille is acting like a moron with a melee or ranged weapon doesn't define her character, and to think so is stupid. You're clutching at straws. You wanna baw because you don't like what he's saying about your beloved franchise go ahead, I'll call the Whaambulance for ya, but stop saying stupid things. To role-play is to play a role, not sit back and watch what happens with no input. And don't come at me with that "Oh it's all personal opinion" after YOU started the "No, it definitely IS an RPG, he's wrong, I'm right" you hypocritical tit

Now you're just being insulting and you're not addressing any of the points I made. I never said "oh it's just personal opinion" so I am not even sure why you're bringing that up.

Also, my beloved franchise? Hardly, this isn't even my favorite series. I'll take the Shin Megami Tensei games over this thank you very much. I am not bawing and I am not crying over anything. I made a statement and I am backing it up.

Also you're right, I DID say it was an rpg, and I DID say he was wrong because HE IS. It doesn't matter what this guy wants to think, FFXIII is an rpg and I am not saying that because I am a fanboy of the series, I am saying it because it's the truth. I am not the one making idiotic statements like "an rpg is one where you make decisions that define your character" that's a load of crap. D&D was the first game to implement that stat building system and then Wizadry came along for the PC and was inspired by D&D. This is, the very FIRST video game adpatation of the RPG genre, and it does not have decision making that has anything to do with the personality of any of your characters, aside from naming them. Then, Dragon Quest for the famicom came along, and it was inspired by Wizadry, this was the first console rpg. These games are rpgs, whether this biwoare employee wants to admit it or not.

Maybe I was a bit hostile, and you know what, yeah I probably shouldn't have acted so assholish, but you're being an asshole right back at me so it all evens out really. I don't want to end this on a negative note and while I don't think you're right, I don't think that we should honestly get mad over this and call each other names.

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I never said "oh it's just personal opinion" so I am not even sure why you're bringing that up.

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you're basically saying none of these games are rpgs because they don't conform to YOUR personal definition of an rpg

I'm going to save myself time and not read the rest of your contradicting drivel, or any further posts, but just know that you could have saved us both a lot of time if you'd just not been a hypocrite from the start. G'day to ya.

Nice quote mine, the next part of that sentence is "to what an rpg actually is" meaning, what you want an rpg to be is irrelevant to your personal beliefs.

Damn, you're a douche.

Yeah, I'm going back on what I said (heh, taking a page out of your book) and reply to that. You see, now you're saying that your OPINION on what makes an RPG is definite and mine, and anyone else's (including the guys at Bioware) isn't. Are you that arrogant? 'k, so yours is the definite definition and we're all wrong; prove it. Find the dictionary of infinite wisdom and prove yourself the ultimate righteous leader on this principal or shut the *bleep* up.

Well maybe you would know why I am right if you read what I wrote, but w/e. It has nothing to do with arrogance, it's the truth. My opinion of a shooter can be a sim game about some dude who rapes girls, doesn't mean it's a shooter. Anyways D&D was the first rpg, and the first video game inspired by D&D was Wizadry, This is the very first video game rpg, and guess what, there are no choices that affect your characters personality. It's a game where you level up characters and dungeon crawl. Then, this game inspired Dragon Quest, the first console rpg. These games are the first of their kind, therefore anything else added to these games are different aspects of the genre, but not what defines them. If you want to disagree go ahead but this is the truth.

RPG's, as a gaming genre, were developed BEFORE consoles and computers. D&D is what defines RPGs, not stuff loosely based on it. That's the only fact that's being overlooked and guess what, you're overlooking it. And if you think D&D is defined by stats and not the 'other stuff' as you call it, you know nothing of it. IN FACT, it's that 'other stuff' that DEFINES the stats, so stop talking nonsense.

Well we simply aren't going to agree and since this is going nowhere, let's end this here. I am gonna go ahead and apologize if you thought I was a douche. You don't seem like a bad person, but honestly this has all been ridiculous, on both our ends. So yeah, no hard feelings bro.

It's the internet, I doubt either of us will lose sleep

See you in the next one XD

Oh don't misunderstand I'm not trying to start anything. I was just saying if that bothered em' it's probably not anymore.

I do see your point though, it was sorta jrpgish. Still the best sonic game in years.

Why point out that goldfish have a three second memory? Why point out anything at all since in the end we all revert to dust? It's an interesting point and it's to do with a game people know and love and how it has changed over the years; that's a good enough reason to discuss it, no?

Because this discussion really won't get a definitive end. Ever. Fans will call it an RPG, and others will call it an adventure game. Everyone will have their own view of what it is, and that's perfectly alright. Just doesn't seem very newsworthy to me.

Most mysteries of the universe won't ever have a definitive answer or end; doesn't mean they're not worth talking or thinking about.

One thing I want to point out for the hell of it is that Mythbusters actually proved that goldfish have memories longer than three seconds.

Well according to Zerpent that's not worth knowing or thinking about, so stop wasting our time with your useless information

I think a lot of things people think about goldfish hold little merit though because, well, they're goldfish so it's hard to care xD

Poor little goldfish.

Comment must have at least 25 characters in length. You now have 21 characters.

Hideo1, I never said it wasn't worth thinking about, I just didn't see the point in sparking a discussion like this. Final Fantasy will always be seen as an RPG, regardless of what some other company says. It doesn't take a genius to see that. While that may have been their opinion, many seem to take it as a fact. Which is just plain wrong.

Also, can you refrain from insulting me like that? While you may not agree with me, don't target me with your rebuttals. That's the quickest way of losing an argument.

Whoa, who's insulting you? My reply to ISDF was a joke, so pull the stick out.

And if you did think it was worth thinking about you wouldn't question why someone would spark a discussion about it.

Bah, fine. You win. I don't feel the need to continue arguing over something like this. Especially not over the internet.

But you do feel the need to point out your superiority for not needing to prove anything (hah, irony)?

Christ, please can I make one point without someone's panties twisting about it?

You said that's what you see the term role-playing to mean, which at least means you see it as the main/most important feature without the inclusion of actual role-playing, which is the same thing. Tell me I'm wrong if you want, but tell me why if you do.

Okay so lets get back to the point of what I was saying; if that isn't how you interpret the genre, how do you interpret it? And it can't just be the bullshit thing otherwise you wouldn't have made the original comment. (No, not trying to start an argument, genuinely want to know)

Anything where your progress is, typically, determined more by stats than proper skill; where you are, in however way, offered a chance to increase the stats of one or more characters; the option to pick the abilities of one or more characters, to whatever extent. Those are among the main things, off the top of my head.

I don't see choice (in the form of character creation, dialogue options, party formation, non-linear exploration, whatever) as being a requirement, leading back to my original comment where I believe that not having any or all of these features doesn't suddenly make a game NOT an RPG. In fact, in addition to that original point (that probably would have clarified what I meant from the get-go), I'd probably view a game with a very specific cast of characters and story progression as more "role-playing" because of my experience and interest in the field of acting. I wouldn't necessarily see it as more of an RPG, but I'd certainly associate it more with playing a role, as the name of the genre would suggest.